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Old Nov 7, 17, 2:32 am #1
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'Code Share' it's a joke and passenger inconvenience.

Wonderful recent experience with KLM over a 'feature' called 'Code Share' where the rules and regulations are it seems only available in Cyberspace, while the 'feature' doesn't work when trying to fly with KLM...........

Read on:.........

[20:35, 10/30/2017] Hello KLM, I am puzzled when I try to find on your website a Multi City set of flights that goes 02/05/2018 CWL - ONT, then 16/05/2018 ONT - GRU, then 30/05/2018 GRU - CWL and KLM cannot find anything, yet your Partner called Delta can find them all and 2 of them are KLM flights!
Why does your Multi City facility not work correctly with your partners?
Has someone not paid the electricity bill between here and the USA, or do you really want a KLM Frequent Flyer to put his business elsewhere?

[20:38, 10/30/2017] P.s Expedia are offering me the full flight program with Delta, KLM are in the NON Operational seat!.

[09:20, 10/31/2017] KLM Customer support: Hi,
Thank you for reaching out. We sincerely regret reading that you are unable to create a new booking via our website. We are currently investigating this. Once we have an update, we will let you know. Your patience and understanding is appreciated.

[10:47, 10/31/2017] : Hello KLM. Having received a Booking Reference ‘JWYQB7’ from you. I cannot find or get at this on your website to see what the cost would be. Can you assist please? Thanks.

[15:10, 10/31/2017] : Hello again KLM as your reply is taking a long time to appear then please cancel that Booking Reference as the business has been placed elsewhere who were more responsive in providing answers.

[15:18, 10/31/2017] KLM Customer support: Apologies for the late response. We regret to hear this. Nevertheless, we thank you for your cooperation and for letting us know this.

[17:07, 10/31/2017]: Just too also advise you that the itinerary that was set up with Delta but included Code Share Flights with KLM could then not be accepted by KLM as the part of the trip that went ONT to GRU was unacceptable to KLM.

[17:09, 10/31/2017]: While the other way when we wanted to come back direct from GRU to AMS and then CWL was not acceptable to Delta.

It leaves this Code Share ‘benefit’ as a rather bad joke for fare paying passengers.

[23:03, 10/31/2017] KLM Customer support: We understand your concern. However, due to code share agreement, you will have to follow rules and regulation of its operating carrier for any extra services. Any code share flights are not eligible for online discounts and from this you cannot purchase extra baggage allowance on our website but only at the airport. Kindly let us know if you have any further questions.

[07:13, 11/1/2017] My itinerary did not include any ‘extra services’ as you put it while I was not interested in any extra baggage allowance.

The reason for denial by Delta to be able to fly with KLM from GRU to AMS and then CWL instead of Delta and the route GRU to ATL then after a 9 hour layover fly to AMS and eventually CWL was purely ‘financial’ as I was told that KLM would not give any of the fare cost to Delta.

How kind of KLM and rather inconvenient for the passenger.

However as KLM would not accept the full itinerary even on ‘Code Share’ it meant 2 separate sets of tickets from KLM at a cost of £3900.

While the full round trip set up by Delta was £2853.

Who is ripping the passenger off under the guise of this feature called ‘Code share’?
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Old Nov 7, 17, 3:07 am #2

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I know that you might be upset, but please think about people who might try to read and understand your story

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveller11 View Post
02/05/2018 CWL - ONT, then 16/05/2018 ONT - GRU, then 30/05/2018 GRU - CWL
Codeshare does mean agreements between companies, also in case of multi cities, but it doesnt mean that DL will share everything with KL, also dont forget that in involve financial agreement, so KL can purchase seats in DL plane for a fee and viceversa

The flights from ONT to GRU will be operated by Delta, with a stop in JFK or ATL

Under the price that was quote on the website, KLM will loose money after paying back Delta so thats why they cant accept it

Same thing for the GRU-AMS-CWL, operated by KLM, prices were too high for Delta and they refuse the quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveller11 View Post
P.s Expedia are offering me the full flight program with Delta, KLM are in the NON Operational seat!.
Expedia is a travel agency, therefore they can buy from whoever they want at whatever price they can get, depends on their contracts with airlines/booking systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveller11 View Post
However as KLM would not accept the full itinerary even on ‘Code Share’ it meant 2 separate sets of tickets from KLM at a cost of £3900[/B].

While the full round trip set up by Delta was £2853.
So then go with delta, cause most of segments you wanted to do are operated by delta

Even if you start from AMS this may come cheaper

I often found AMS-ATL-GRU for 600€with Delta

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveller11 View Post
Who is ripping the passenger off under the guise of this feature called ‘Code share’?
Again codeshare doesnt mean fullshare, it depends on agreements .

For instance, KLM and AirFrance shares a lot because these two airlines are owned by the same company, and prices are the often the same

Delta and KLM shares routes mainly between USA and Amsterdam, on these routes, codeshare prices are quite similar, but if you go further than amsterdam or atlanta with a codeshare its another story

Last edited by fifty_two; Nov 7, 17 at 9:34 am
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Old Nov 7, 17, 6:22 am #3
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As fifty_two said, I don’t think anyone will understand your story and problem
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Old Nov 7, 17, 6:24 am #4

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I doubt there is any problem at all.
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Old Nov 7, 17, 7:40 am #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveller11 View Post
[20:38, 10/30/2017] P.s Expedia are offering me the full flight program with Delta, KLM are in the NON Operational seat!.
If Expedia are happy to sell you the ticket you want to buy, why not buy it from them?

(what's a "NON operational seat"?)

It seems that you are unhappy that KLM won't sell you a flight from GRU-ATL-(wherever)-CWL [Or else, you are unhappy that Delta won't sell you GRU-AMS-CWL all on KLM - it's not really clear, but the same reasoning that follows as presented for KLM applies equally to Delta if instead your complaint is actually about Delta not selling you the KLM tickets you want]. It makes sense that while Delta may want to route you via ATL - because they can put you on two of their own long-distance flights - KLM would instead prefer to put you on GRU-AMS-CWL, thereby avoiding Delta altogether, and thereby avoiding the need for two transfers. Most customers would prefer to have as few flights as needed - a direct flight always being the preferred option - and as few periods of down-time waiting at airports between flights, so it is not surprising that KLM will focus on the faster, more direct options. There is no requirement on you to buy any flights offered from KLM, just as there is no requirement on KLM to offer you every possibility for getting between any two points. If you find the exact itinerary anywhere else - such as on Expedia - then you should buy it there.

Remember, the airlines are not travel agents, and are not in business to provide you with the full suite of possible connections and itineraries. If you want to fly airline A, you should book from airline A or from a third party, rather than expecting airline B to sell you the codeshares it has access to on that other airline. The majority of airlines around the world will only put you on codeshares when they also get to put you on at least one of their own flights - and preferably, the majority of the flights they put you on will be on their own flights, rather than on any codeshare partners. You can't feasibly go to Delta expecting them to sell you tickets for longhaul travel that only include KLM operated flights, just as you can't feasibly go to KLM, expecting them to sell you tickets for longhaul travel that only occur on Delta flights, particularly when there is another option that is more "preferable" to the airline in question, i.e. putting you on their own flights for the majority of the trip.

Last edited by irishguy28; Nov 7, 17 at 7:50 am
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Old Nov 7, 17, 8:53 am #6
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I just noticed the unusual routing you seem to wish to take.

Forcing a Europe-to-South America flight to connect in a small, regional, West-USA airport [or even via a small, regional Canadian airport if you meant Ontario, Canada] is quite an unusual request.

To expect KLM to sell a competitively-priced ticket on such a routing seems unusual.
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Old Nov 7, 17, 10:38 am #7
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Apologies for your confusion about the 2 itineraries and for the benefit of 'irishguy28 'ONT' is the 3 letter code for Ontario International Airport USA, and a 'NON Operational Seat is NO KLM offering from Expedia while they claim to cover more than 400 Airlines around the world.

I was using the text from a WhatsApp communication that was carried out between KLM and myself, who understood it as it used the 3 letter codes for all the airports included in both the Delta & KLM Itineraries.

While I have opted for the Delta Itinerary as they have offered the 'Round Trip' with a saving of £1047 against the KLM alternative.

Although it means a 6 hour layover in ATL (Which is Atlanta USA) Delta's Customer Service advice for the layover was 'Get a Sky Club Day Pass' which is an excellent suggestion.
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Old Nov 7, 17, 10:52 am #8

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Very bizarre routing. Is this an attempt at a mileage run?
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Old Nov 7, 17, 12:23 pm #9

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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
I just noticed the unusual routing you seem to wish to take.

Forcing a Europe-to-South America flight to connect in a small, regional, West-USA airport [or even via a small, regional Canadian airport if you meant Ontario, Canada] is quite an unusual request.

To expect KLM to sell a competitively-priced ticket on such a routing seems unusual.
Irishguy, whilst I don't really get the OP's problem in general, in his defence, I think you've missed a key part of his post, where he shows the dates for his journey, including a 14 day stopover in ONT. So it's not a connection point from Europe to South America, but a triangular journey.....
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Old Nov 7, 17, 12:48 pm #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redrob View Post
Irishguy, whilst I don't really get the OP's problem in general, in his defence, I think you've missed a key part of his post, where he shows the dates for his journey, including a 14 day stopover in ONT. So it's not a connection point from Europe to South America, but a triangular journey.....
Fair play to you for ploughing through that text!

Those are very unusual restrictions to put on a ticket. The guy should probably have gone to see a travel agent. If it were me, I'd have just flown to LAX and made my way by surface to Ontario. Not sure I would have tried to put the US west coast and South America on a triangular ticket. If I had to, I would probably have booked a CWL to GRU return, forcing a long stopover in a Delta hub in the US. While on that long stopover, I would have bought a separate ticket to/from California.

Or better yet - This would have been something to use miles on. Ticket 1 - CWL to LAX; Ticket 2 - LAX to GRU: Ticket 3 - GRU to CWL
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Old Nov 7, 17, 2:29 pm #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliform View Post
Very bizarre routing. Is this an attempt at a mileage run?
Routing was for specific reasons which will remain private.

& for the second part the answer is: No.
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Old Nov 7, 17, 2:34 pm #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redrob View Post
Irishguy, whilst I don't really get the OP's problem in general, in his defence, I think you've missed a key part of his post, where he shows the dates for his journey, including a 14 day stopover in ONT. So it's not a connection point from Europe to South America, but a triangular journey.....
Thanks redrob.

It's nice to see someone who reads the whole itinerary, while the 14 day stopover is specific at ONT (USA not Canada) as is the 13 day stopover at Sao Paulo (GRU)
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Old Nov 7, 17, 9:43 pm #13

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A lot of times, codeshare flights will restrict stopover rules. Codeshared flights often must be booked in married segments. Hence, the next connecting flight must be taken within 4 hrs domestic or 24 hrs internationally.

Reading further, I see this circle-trip will not price correctly. The distance between ONT and GRU is longer than either CWL-ONT or GRU-CWL. Hence, you cannot invoke the stopover rule for circle-trip or an open-jaw pricing. Also, you may bump into the higher-intermediary-point rule for GRU-CWL because of connection in ATL, JFK or AMS.

The best workaround this would be an end-on-end ticketing for 2 open-jaws. Ticket A: CWL-AMS-connect somewhere USA-ONT, open jaw, JFK-CDG-CWL. Ticket B: ONT-ATL-GRU-JFK. You should always avoid backtracking your open jaw connecting cities. Ticket A should not be CWL-AMS-CWL, AMS-ONT plus ATL-AMS. Neither should ticket B route ONT-ATL-GRU-ATL. The system will try to calculate roundtrips from common connecting point and add one-way segments before or after the roundtrip. After both itineraries are ticketed, call up the airline and have them string them together by cross-referencing each other.

Best of luck. Contact me privately should you require more assistance. I have extensive experience in ticketing circle-trip, open-jaw and end-on-end itineraries.

Last edited by kkua; Nov 7, 17 at 10:14 pm
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Old Nov 8, 17, 8:29 am #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkua View Post
A lot of times, codeshare flights will restrict stopover rules. Codeshared flights often must be booked in married segments. Hence, the next connecting flight must be taken within 4 hrs domestic or 24 hrs internationally.

Reading further, I see this circle-trip will not price correctly. The distance between ONT and GRU is longer than either CWL-ONT or GRU-CWL. Hence, you cannot invoke the stopover rule for circle-trip or an open-jaw pricing. Also, you may bump into the higher-intermediary-point rule for GRU-CWL because of connection in ATL, JFK or AMS.

The best workaround this would be an end-on-end ticketing for 2 open-jaws. Ticket A: CWL-AMS-connect somewhere USA-ONT, open jaw, JFK-CDG-CWL. Ticket B: ONT-ATL-GRU-JFK. You should always avoid backtracking your open jaw connecting cities. Ticket A should not be CWL-AMS-CWL, AMS-ONT plus ATL-AMS. Neither should ticket B route ONT-ATL-GRU-ATL. The system will try to calculate roundtrips from common connecting point and add one-way segments before or after the roundtrip. After both itineraries are ticketed, call up the airline and have them string them together by cross-referencing each other.

Best of luck. Contact me privately should you require more assistance. I have extensive experience in ticketing circle-trip, open-jaw and end-on-end itineraries.
I think you missed a couple of points made previously, while I am assuming that you know the TLA's (Three Letter Abbreviations) for different airports?

As a few people still seem to think that ONT is for some obscure reason in Canada when it is in fact Ontario International Airport in the USA:

So using the TLA's:

1) KLM would not accept as a 'Code Share' the Itinerary that went:
Leg 1: CWL - AMS - SLC - ONT.
Leg 2: ONT - SLC - DTW - GRU
Leg 3: GRU - AMS - CWL

They said that as we went from SLC - ONT in Leg 1 and then in Leg 2 went ONT - SLC that was not acceptable for a Code Share Itinerary as we were at that point going 'backwards'.

So I asked about changing Leg 2 and go from LAX to GRU and was again told 'No Deal' even though we were now continuing to move 'forwards'.

KLM were prepared to offer Leg 1 and Leg 2 as a combined itinerary and 1 ticket, but Leg 2 would have to be second separate ticket which also meant 2 Flight Confirmation Numbers (one for each ticket) while the total cost was going to be £3900.

2) Delta offered a 'Code Share' with a twist and it went:
Leg 1: Same route as KLM.
Leg 2: Same route as KLM.
Leg 3: GRU - ATL then after 6 hours layover ATL - AMS and finally AMS to CWL.

Not ideal having the 'diversion' to ATL which is an overnight flight to get there and then a 6 hour layover and another overnight flight from ATL to AMS.

However as Delta offered the complete route on one booking reference and one ticket their cost was £2853.

A saving of £1407 in my pocket.

So.......The Delta Route/Tickets have been purchased, while interestingly I now have 1 Flight Confirmation Number from Delta for the complete journey and a different Flight Confirmation number with KLM while surprisingly it includes 'Leg 2' which KLM said they could not accommodate.

So now after the 5 hours I spent on the telephone between KLM & Delta we are sorted.

I wanted to do another trip later in 2018 to the Far East but again KLM would not accept a flight that involved one of their Code Share Partners, which meant 2 tickets and a much higher price!

So I looked at Singapore Airlines who can do the total itinerary with no problem while at a much lower price for the tickets.
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Old Nov 8, 17, 8:50 am #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveller11 View Post
So I looked at Singapore Airlines who can do the total itinerary with no problem while at a much lower price for the tickets.
how much lower?

I've got it down to £1470 on your given dates, but with long layovers and 4 flights per direction on a hotch-potch of airlines (CWL-DUB(BE), DUB-LGW(FR), LGW-OAK(DY), OAK-ONT(WN); ONT-LAS(WN), LAS-FLL(NK), FLL-BOG(NK), BOG-GRU(JJ); GRU-LIS(TP), LIS-STR(TP), STR-DUB(FR), DUB-CWL(BE)

If you could live with LAX instead of ONT, you can get it for only £1243 and with slightly fewer stops (CWL-CDG(BE), CDG-LAX(DY); LAX-MEX(Y4), MEX-LIM(4O), LIM-SCL(H2), SCL-GRU(O6); GRU-OPO(TP), OPO-ORY(TP), ORY-DUB(TO), DUB-CWL(BE).

Of course, the blindingly obvious thing to do would be for you to depart from London, where an all-Star Alliance ticket (Air Canada and United, only two stops max on each leg) can be yours for only £930

Last edited by irishguy28; Nov 8, 17 at 8:59 am
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