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Old Oct 30, 17, 12:52 pm - Wikipost
Cpi-Web Forums Thread Wiki: Consolidated "Delayed/Cancelled" International Flights (2017)
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Old Jan 1, 17, 5:59 am #1
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Arrow Consolidated "Delayed/Cancelled" International Flights (2017)

A new thread for 2017 ... hopefully shorter than the 2016 thread

UA197 NRT-GUM 738 1h30 late due to aircraft maintenance
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Old Jan 1, 17, 11:18 am #2

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UA870 diverted to Auckland then cancelled

What's the real story here?
UA claim crew time out.
Edit: OK, looks like unruly passenger incident.

Last edited by grapegrower; Jan 1, 17 at 11:26 am Reason: Additional info
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Old Jan 1, 17, 11:39 am #3
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Why is this not the real story?

i have no insight and haven't looked this up. But given the SYD flight are among UAs longest, the potential for this kind of situation with a diversion are quite high. Don't know the details of crew regulations or what UA allows in their contract, but if the diversion to AKL, combined with the new time requiired to get to the destination is beyond the legal working hours for the crew, the crew times out, and they can not leave until they have received minimum rest, or UA can get a new crew there. Clearly, this was the option that UA chose given the alternatives. UA doesn't have extra crew in SYD/AKL. The only real otheroption to consider may have been to stop in HNL, and gather a crew while enroute there to replace the ones onboard and continue on. This has other consequences down the line (another stop for pax, two crews out of position vs. 1, etc.) and may have not even have been an option. UA would have evaluated alternatives before deciding. None is going to be optimal, as even if they could have continued on, they still have a crew and aricraft with additional schedule after arrival and UA may have to scramble to make alternatives for.

Crew time outs can especially be an issue on these long flights, where there isn't much of a buffer available. SYD/AKL/SIN and EWR-HKG/India are some of the more likely flights to run into this scenario - a 1 -2 hour delay is enough for the crew to time out.
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Old Jan 1, 17, 11:44 am #4
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UA870 SYD-SFO 789 diverted to AKL then cancelled

extra section tomorrow

UA2052 AKL-SFO
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Old Jan 1, 17, 12:12 pm #5

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A new thread for 2017 ... hopefully shorter than the 2016 thread
cfischer - Haha! You are an optimist! So I will wish a Happy New Year to UA.

Edited to add: For the record, I do note the 2016 thread had 1780 posts.

Last edited by restlessinRNO; Jan 1, 17 at 12:22 pm
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Old Jan 1, 17, 12:20 pm #6

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Originally Posted by cfischer View Post
A new thread for 2017 ... hopefully shorter than the 2016 thread
My prediction: 2,175 posts for 2017.
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Old Jan 1, 17, 12:44 pm #7
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A friend of mine was on this. He said they were close to Fiji when the pilot said they needed to divert to AKL due to a belligerent passenger. They had to spend the night in Auckland. Bummer.

This was a 787. Imagine the expense involved in this diversion.
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Old Jan 1, 17, 12:51 pm #8

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Originally Posted by emcampbe View Post
Why is this not the real story?

i have no insight and haven't looked this up. But given the SYD flight are among UAs longest, the potential for this kind of situation with a diversion are quite high. Don't know the details of crew regulations or what UA allows in their contract, but if the diversion to AKL, combined with the new time requiired to get to the destination is beyond the legal working hours for the crew, the crew times out, and they can not leave until they have received minimum rest, or UA can get a new crew there. Clearly, this was the option that UA chose given the alternatives. UA doesn't have extra crew in SYD/AKL. The only real otheroption to consider may have been to stop in HNL, and gather a crew while enroute there to replace the ones onboard and continue on. This has other consequences down the line (another stop for pax, two crews out of position vs. 1, etc.) and may have not even have been an option. UA would have evaluated alternatives before deciding. None is going to be optimal, as even if they could have continued on, they still have a crew and aricraft with additional schedule after arrival and UA may have to scramble to make alternatives for.

Crew time outs can especially be an issue on these long flights, where there isn't much of a buffer available. SYD/AKL/SIN and EWR-HKG/India are some of the more likely flights to run into this scenario - a 1 -2 hour delay is enough for the crew to time out.
Even Honolulu won't make a big difference from a pilot standpoint. You need 787 pilots which means they'd need to come in from the west coast. The deadhead to Honolulu counts as part of their duty day. Just would be next to impossible to time it perfectly to get two pilots from LA/SFO to Honolulu to then meet the Sydney flight and fly it back to the states as a continuous trip without rest and have it be a legal day from a 117 perspective.
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Old Jan 1, 17, 1:20 pm #9

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Originally Posted by dhuey View Post
A friend of mine was on this. He said they were close to Fiji when the pilot said they needed to divert to AKL due to a belligerent passenger. They had to spend the night in Auckland. Bummer.

This was a 787. Imagine the expense involved in this diversion.
Agree with this post. I have a client on the flight and they were put up in hotel at the AKL airport for the night. Suppose to leave early afternoon NZ time today.
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Old Jan 1, 17, 1:30 pm #10
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Does anyone know what happens to the passenger in this situation? Let's assume his/her belligerence really did require a diversion. And let's say it's not a NZ national. What happens next? Criminal charges in Auckland? How do you get that passenger back to their home nation? Another commercial flight?
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Old Jan 1, 17, 1:52 pm #11
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I hope it involves being billed for some of the cost of the diversion.
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Old Jan 1, 17, 1:54 pm #12

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Removed

Last edited by Skyflyer415; Jan 1, 17 at 8:18 pm
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Old Jan 1, 17, 1:55 pm #13
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Originally Posted by dhuey View Post
Does anyone know what happens to the passenger in this situation? Let's assume his/her belligerence really did require a diversion. And let's say it's not a NZ national. What happens next? Criminal charges in Auckland? How do you get that passenger back to their home nation? Another commercial flight?
It really depends on the jurisdiction and what the local authorities choose to do.

A US national was tried and charged in the UK last year for causing a diversion. He was acquitted. American Cleared of Air Rage Charges After Flight Diversion.
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Old Jan 1, 17, 2:10 pm #14
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In this case, the passenger was a US citizen with legal residency in Australia. However, due to the circumstances, New Zealand did not grant him entry to the country. He was arrested at the airport and will spend his time in NZ in jail, until he can book a flight to leave. He will not be permitted onboard a UA flight ever again.
Thanks for the info. UA understandably wants never to see this passenger again. But I doubt any other airline wants his/her business, hence my curiosity about how they get this person out of NZ.
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Old Jan 1, 17, 2:18 pm #15

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Originally Posted by Kacee View Post
It really depends on the jurisdiction and what the local authorities choose to do.

A US national was tried and charged in the UK last year for causing a diversion. He was acquitted. American Cleared of Air Rage Charges After Flight Diversion.
How about the civil part? It seems logical that UA would go after this guy for the expenses (which is probably 6 figures US?) As far as re-accommodation and compensations go, I suppose this is classified as beyond UA's control but they will at least do the hotel, meal and connections?
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